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by: jeffroby

Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 10:38:04 AM EDT


(worthy of discussion, re the ideas I have been posting... I'm interested in people's thoughts on this. - promoted by Diane G)

Originally posted last February, I think the points still have some relevance in light of how Obama has "disappointed" us.

For Progressive Dem / Progressive Indy Alliance

We've hashed over the same old 3rd party arguments pro-and-con for years and years. But in promoting the Full Court Press ( http://www.docudharma.com/diar... ), I realized that some of the people I've been talking with are progressive Democrats and some are independents and some are both. Yet we are all saying remarkably similar things. I'm not regarded as a sellout for pushing Democratic primaries, and they are not wild-eyed radicals. There is a new realism among independents, including at least respect for the Full Court Press, and Democrats are no longer all saying my party right or wrong, remember how bad the Republicans are.

jeffroby :: For Progressive Dem / Progressive Indy Alliance
A New Look

I think the times they are a'changing, and 3rd party politics needs a new look. Three changes:

(1) having spent years in the wilderness, Democrats have elected a Democratic president and Congress, and it has turned to ashes in their mouths;

(2) self-declared independents, amorphous, once marginal and still largely unorganized, have become the largest single bloc among American voters;

(3) the teabagger movement has shaken us, both because they pose a real fascist threat, and because we sense that many of them are our sisters and brothers and would be with us now, if only we could have controlled our laughter at their silly signs and seen the valid fear and rage behind them at a government out of control.

The critical alliance is between independent progressives, and the left wing of the Democratic Party.

I think there is a rough balance between them, but it is by no means symmetrical. Independents themselves have a left, right and center, and are not highly organized qua independents. You can't say, "the independent position on healthcare is ..." Left Democrats have more structural levers, including ballot status, primaries and delegated conventions, but at the price of being more enmeshed in the system, hooked on the conveyor belt that goes from angry radical to dedicated party worker to candidate to office holder to successful player.

I do not think a pure 3rd party such as the Greens or another Nader will make any kind of significant showing on its own. I strongly believe that, if a viable 3rd party comes into being, it will have to include a major breakaway from the Democratic Party. This is an old argument. The subtext is that I'm a Democrat and I'll stay a Democrat, but when there is some radical breakaway, I'll be there, I promise, oh yes indeedy! Yet I believe it true on the face of it. The question is whether Democratic Independents (which is how I characterize myself) can do something to make that break rather than waiting around for it to happen someday, just like some radicals wait around for the general strike to happen someday.

Something has changed. Independents now exert a gravitational pull through their mass that makes such a breakaway viable. It wasn't that long ago that independents were invisible. Polls listed Democrat and Republicans. Period. Independent votes were not reported, and in many cases not even counted. Well, for better or worse, Massachusetts independents were not invisible.

So let me speculate on a scenario that contains poetic truth if lacking Nostradamus-like precision.

2012 primary is the engine

I believe the driving engine for either a 3rd party OR a strong independent wing of the Democratic Party in the foreseeable future will be the 2012 primary challenge to Obama (I take its happening as a given). I won't guess what the issues will be, probably the likely suspects (war, jobs, abortion, healthcare). But he will be the focus of national anger at the pagan spectacle in the Beltway.

There is also the possibility of some big name running as an independent, like Jane Hamsher (I don't want to argue particulars here, but you get my drift). But the Democratic primaries will be where the action is. Candidate(s)? Maybe someone like Kucinich or Feingold (as examples, I'm not interested in guessing names right now)? It will be a "good liberal," not a radical, advocating positions that are reasonable but declared "unrealistic." ("You'll throw the race to the Republicans, we can't have that!") The basis of the campaign will not be a sudden embrace of Bolshevism, but rather Obama's embrace of Wall Street. It will be a mix of angry rank-and-file and disgruntled party machine.

The insurgent candidate will lose. The candidate will not call for a 3rd party, will support Obama after the primaries - will make a concession speech that would shame the Moscow Show Trials. Many of her or his followers will follow suit. The candidate will not personally work to create an independent infrastructure within the Democratic Party. Obama will probably win, not because of his impressive performance but because the foaming-at-the-mouth Republicans will be splitting. After the election, the Democratic challenger will not lead a 3rd party.

But the challenge will have created an organized force and set it in motion, despite their worst intentions. The question is whether that force can be consolidated - inside or outside - after election day. Independent candidates have a gloomy history with this. Barry Commoner after the 1980 election wanted a lobby group he could sell to the Democrats (I was there). Ross Perot was hostile to building the Reform Party into a real party in 1996 even as it went through the motions (I was there). Lenora Fulani ended up as Bloomberg's get-out-the-vote operation in the Black community in New York. Democratic primary presidential insurgents are usually brought back into the fold and given a job that is supposed to placate their followers, and I expect no change there.

The key is infrastructure

Central to the Full Court Press is building infrastructure. However, we have no pretensions to leading much of anything in a presidential primary, we are too small. That's why we are focusing on congressional primaries only. But we do see ourselves as part of a broader movement. Our 5 points play a role in targeting politicians, of course, but they also play a role in defining ourselves. They can be put forward early in the primary process, maybe mid-2011, but I don't think them ultimately viable at the presidential level for this round. We will get and support a good liberal (I speak only for myself here). If you feel indignant at such an admission, I only have one word to say to you: Obama Obama Obama.

As those who have followed my writing know, I have little patience for prolonged programmatic wrangling. If you want to play Spot-the-Trot or root out the Stalinist deviationists or further excoriate the renegade Kautsky, I say, get a room. But there has to be some defining unity other than candidate personality. Some way people can say, we fought not just for candidate Goodliberal, but for these principles, and whatever the party leadership does, we stand by those principles. (By the way, this is why I look askance at the "boots on the ground" argument that says, get out there, knock on doors, phone banks, do something, ANYTHING. Because in the absence of direction, it only feeds the machine.)

We have to be able to say, this is what an independent Democrat is. These lines will not be crossed.

As an aside, it would be important for independents to begin wrestling with what it means to be a mainstream independent (and when I say mainstream, I don't mean moderate, you may have noticed the stream flowing a bit left). In Massachusetts, we have heard a lot of squabbling over what it all means, was it because voters moved left, because voters moved right, voters jumped up and down. Who the hell knows? We don't have the level of organization among independents OR the rank-and-file Democrats to really know. That's another thing infrastructure does, it gives you tools to make such analyses.

If we can build this, you will hear those principles and more in the next congressional elections and we will be strong in 2016. If we can't, we're screwed!

As some of you may know, I have not considered the Green Party a viable vehicle for independent politics. I have argued that they are organizationally calcified, obsessed with programmatics, and would lack the flexibility to adapt to a strong 3rd-party upsurge.

At the same time, I've noticed a lot of people touting the Greens as our best independent vehicle, citing their having thoroughly progressive politics, a nationally-recognized organization in place, and ballot status in many states and I am moved by this.

So in these circumstances, I am reconsidering my position on the Greens. It may be the case that the Greens or elements of the Greens will be more responsive to an independent upsurge than to maintaining their own organizational status quo.

The Green Party has a ballot line in representing just over 70% of voters and 68% of Electoral Votes Thus, for better or worse, though small in absolute terms, they are one of the best-organized forces on what is left of the American left. Yes, there are larger organizations such as MoveOn, but they are rigid and committed to the Democratic Party.

Programmatically, I would call the Greens rad-lib (radical-liberal). Too radical for the mainstream of the Democratic Party, but falling short of calling for revolution or even socialism. Rather they call for an EXTREME application of the Democratic Party platform, including opposition to racism, sexism and homophobia. This seems to be the dominant politic of most of the blogosphere left, and was in fact the dominant politic of the 60's movement, if you strip away calls for revolution that lacked socialist or anarchist substance.

To restate, the driving engine for a 3rd party in the foreseeable future will be the 2012 primary challenge to Obama (I take its happening as a given). I won't guess what the issues will be, probably the likely suspects (war, jobs, abortion, healthcare). But he will be the focus of national anger at the pagan spectacle in the Beltway.

Green Green, it's Green they say ...

I still believe this to be the case. An question that keeps popping up in the discussions I've been having is how the Greens will relate to this, and how we may want to relate to the Greens.

The politics will be murky. My fear is that the Greens will cling hard to their programmatics, and that the breakaway Dems will consider the Greens "too left." Additionally, the breakaway would likely take the form of an individual candidacy, hopefully announcing their run once the Democratic nomination outcome is set, but long enough before the Democratic convention to not miss too many ballot access deadlines. For purposes of this discussion, write-ins are like Nowheresville, daddy-o.

Some of the breakaway forces might migrate to the Greens and back the Green endorsee. On the other hand, some of the Greens, seeing new opportunities to operate in the mainstream, may push the Greens to back this individual candidate effort, or break away from the Greens. Options:

(1) Go with the breakaway, the most mainstream elements of it. This is where the action will be, the chance to influence large numbers into something new. The Full Court Press, while taking no position, is well-positioned for this.

(2) Go big into the Greens. This can take two forms:

(2a) Assume that the Dem breakaway will dissipate itself despite all the hoopla, and dig in to build the Greens long-term.

(2b) Go into the Greens with the intention of influencing them to back the breakaway. If I were going into the Greens, that would be my instinct.

(3) There is also the option of sticking with the Democrats completely. How I would view this depends on whether anything successfully develops independently. My instinct, no matter it shakes out, is to continue with an inside/outside approach. In any event, the Full Court Press is not folding up its tent after 2012.

Note on takeovers:

There have been various folks calling for "taking over" the Greens. A few comments on that. Who is to do the taking over? The United Front Committee to Take Over the Greens? If people go into the Greens with that perspective, they will do so piecemeal, not as an organized force, and be either repulsed piecemeal, or be absorbed with minimal impact.

If there were an organized force to take over the Greens, why wouldn't such a force simply create a new and better party rather than engage in the bloodbath such a takeover would entail? Would capturing ballot status be worth it?

The problem with takeovers, as opposed to mutually beneficial mergers, is that if you are successful, you drive out your opposition and are then left with yourselves in glorious possession of the ashes. Even a weak and dormant organization can be awakened into a frenzy to defend its organizational turf, repel the invaders, and then go back to sleep the next day.

I invite discussion on this. I have no hard and fast position on the Greens.

My crystal ball grows cloudy, I am not sure how things will ultimately shake out. What unity? Is there a way that independents can relate to this? Is there a protest vote to register AFTER the primary? Does something like the FCP principles - too left for a presidential primary - re-emerge as the basis for progressive Democrats and progressive independents to unite? Can independents build new infrastructure? Not necessarily on the existing independent parties, which I believe are organizationally calcified, but on a foundation of social motion? Will that social motion be there?

All I know is that it's a whole new ballgame.

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We need (10.00 / 1)
to be able to get the green party included in the debates. The way it's structured now, it's essentially a closed forum limited to the two major parties. If anyone else is serious about expanding third party influence, I'd be fascinated to hear how we can accomplish this.

The messaging needs a wider audience and that won't happen without media coverage.


Party Politics.... (12.00 / 1)
Greens won't be able to do it, and my reasons are myriad for thinking it thus. I could expound, but its been a really long day.

Instead, I want to point out that I see our conversational disconnect.

I think there is NOTHING we can do with our votes in 10, maybe even in 12...

The system itself is too fucked; too media-heavy and money heavy to not be assimilated, marginalized or as Louise above says, flat out ignored.

What I am looking to do is raise a groundswell of enlightenment, an educational program, if you will, to get people talking to and with one another about what it is they really want/need.

This is what will bring people to the revolutionary way of thinking - which is to say back to reason... and realize the system is set against them, set to only really benefit the Elites, and the Politicians who work for them... who no longer work for the people.

Labor didn't change because one folk singer wrote some songs, the folk singer wrote the songs from whispers in the fields...

Making the collective psyche of our relatively young and brash country will take time.

I'm working for a more final solution.

Listen to The Wild Wild Left on internet talk radio



Our votes may not mean much ... (0.00 / 0)
... but the election gives us a forum to educate, if nothing else.

What happened to your workers party or people's party?

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe  


[ Parent ]
That is how I build it (0.00 / 0)
Moving the conversation to ground level reality rather than partisan shit.

You cannot get a Tigers fan EVER to like the Yankees.... but you can get a Baseball fan to get REALLY pissed at the Owners for locking out the League.

Its about changing the basis of the conversation.

Then the Party forms out of NEED.

Listen to The Wild Wild Left on internet talk radio



[ Parent ]
my best comment maybe ever (12.00 / 1)
I think its gonna be an essay tomorrow :)

Not bad for a under edumucated overweight, housewife blogger...

I loves me some good analogy.

Listen to The Wild Wild Left on internet talk radio



[ Parent ]
perhaps its momentum was weakend by your fellow electoral educators & all that programmatic wrangling? n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Good luck with all of that (12.00 / 1)
And I do mean that with all sincerity.

However, FWIW, I believe electoral politics to be ultimately futile and pressure politics to be rather naive, especially now that corporations can spend as much as they want on campaign contributions.  But then again, I am just a wild-eyed radical who is "sitting around waiting for the workers strike to happen".

On the Greens and "social motion" to build a "new" infrastructure (within the broader existing infrastructure):

I think the Greens are hopeless, although I think the same about any efforts to move the country to the left (even an inch to the impotent, "pragmatic" milquetoast liberal left) via a third party--wait, make that "second" party.  Here is a case study about the Greens in particular (if anyone cares):

I lived in San Francisco when Gavin Newsom was running for mayor, and his opponent was  Green Party candidate Matt Gonzalez. Since we were in SF, it was a given that both candidates would voice support for the "liberal" social issues (i.e., gay marriage, abortion, "the environment", yadda yadda yadda).  However, Newsom's economic platform was almost indistinguishable from that of any Republican for mayor of a major city  (in this case, that meant cutting spending on all city social services for the poor, repealing city taxes on large corporations doing business in SF while providing tax incentives, making it easier for landlords to get around rent control law and evict tenants by widening the loophole in the Ellis Act, and opposing the sizable movement to evict PG&E and create a public power utility, etc).  

In a city where one cannot win an election with an (R) after his/her name except in maybe one district for the Board of Supes, Newsom ran as an ostensibly standard liberal democract. He had a well-oiled campaign machine that worked tirelessly to obfuscate his conservative economic platform. His campaign strategy was much like Obama's in many ways. It had a sophisticated PR crew that created a Rorschach candidate onto whom libs and progressives could project their own values.

Newsom outspent Gonzalez 12:1 (some estimates were 15:1). Just before the election, polls showed that Gonzalez--a comparative "nobody"-- was ahead of Newsom (within the margin of error) b/c of the hard work of us wild-eyed radicals who do nothing but sit around waiting for the ressurection of Che. Those of us in the loony left had managed to organize ourselves into a cohesive movement that succesfully exposed Newsom's well-concealed fiscal conservatism to arguably the most liberal electorate in the US. Against all odds (and to the shock of many people), there was suddenly a serious contender in the SF mayoral race who was NOT a dem.

Yep...hardline Trotskyists, "radical" liberals (as you called them), liberal/progressive Dems, and even gasp those psychotic anarchists worked together to fight the draconian Newsom agenda. We rallied around shared principles that Gonzalez articulated, and not just the candidate himself who was rather charisma-challenged. And before anyone asks, let me answer the question:

As Chomksy and many other anarchist thinkers have noted, most anarchists**  do not oppose government programs like social security (quite the contrary); they support efforts to actualize single-payer health care; and they oppose efforts to further starve social programs for the poor, etc. In rare cases, anarchists have even supported political candidates (as a form of harm reduction). The same well-known anarchist thinkers have also maintained that anarchists must agitate for their vision of a just world while being mindful of the overwhelming power of the extant illegitimate (<--key word) hierarchies that cannot yet be toppled by any means. Moreover, they contend that anarchists should organize (yes, anarchists DO organize and have been among the best political organizers in history...I haven't a clue why intelligent people think otherwise) to oppose liberalconservative policies that will harm working class and poor people (e.g., rolling back Medicare, Obama's health care "reform") while supporting those rare efforts by a few politicians that actually help them (e.g., modest goals like raising the official poverty line to increase eligibility for the few social welfare services that remain after Clinton-Bush-Obama) .  The absurd accusation that anarchists and other radicals (my definition of a radical is one who believes the current system cannot be reformed and that it should be scrapped entirely, constitution and all, so we can start from square one) sit on our deluded asses waiting for the revolution to suddenly start tomorrow is the ultimate straw man.  Now that I have cleared that up, let's continue...

The Democrats were poised to lose their biggest stronghold--that la la land of ostensibly wild-eyed radicals (in this case, liberal dems) & queers known as San Francisco.  Even worse, the super-rich Getty-ordained heir of the Democratic establishment would be losing to a quirky guy who showed up at poetry readings, quoted Neruda sometimes, wanted to expand city government services to the poor, and was almost a full-blown socialist (he was at the far, far  left end of the social democratic spectrum).

So they called in the big guns...Gore, Clinton and other establishment Democrats (including lib Dems of the Kucinich variety) came to SF to campaign for a Dem mayoral candidate & tout his liberal creds. Yeah, you read that correctly: these players on the national stage converged upon a city mayoral race. The DNC poured tons of money into Newsom's campaign arsenal.  They also provided in-kind services like PR management and lots of airtime.

On election night, I was one of many nutball radicals who worked as a precinct observer to make sure the precincts in the working class/minority/poor districts didn't close early as they had done many times in the past to prevent the non-middle class/rich people from casting their inconvenient votes (this always seemed to happen whenever the public power referendum made it onto the ballot, though I am sure it was a mere coincidence).

As you all know, Newsom won. What was not reported (as far as I know) in the mainstream media was that he won by a less than respectable margin, particularly given the massive disparity in each candidates' coffers as well as the  biased MSM coverage in favor of Newsom.  

Over the next few days, ballot boxes from the most pro-Gonzalez districts were found floating in the Bay.  This was reported in the local MSM & verified by the police, and then... nothing.  Nada.

The palpably energetic grassroots movement that emerged around the Gonzalez platform is precisely the kind of movement that Obama disingenuously claims got him into the White House.  But in this case, it was real.  It was bigger than both the candidate and the Green Party, and it was going to last.

By the week after the election, I doubt anyone in SF knew who Matt Gonzalez was. The new infrastructure within local electoral politics that was built on principles and almost made history just vanished.  And rightfully so.

THe lessons of the ballot boxes in the Bay and the national dem calvary showing up in SF was clear:  electoral politics are rigged and are not going to bring about the substantive change liberals say they want. Electoral politics ultimately kill "social motion".  It is simple Cloward-esque logic really:  Campaigns cost money, and those entities with the most money are not going to financially support a candidate (or any oppositional movement or organization) that in any way threatens their financial interests, much less one that could portend their dissolution. This is why MoveOn has become such a high profile organization:  it doesn't seriously promote even mildly center-left platforms, so it is deemed safe & respectable enough by the elites (including those self-proclaimed conservatives who are on the "other" side of the ideological divide) to sustain financially.  

This inherent contradiction has always been that cliché of a wizard behind the US curtain we call representative democracy. That wizard has grown even more powerful after the recent SCOTUS ruling.

It cannot be reformed.

Liberal true believers in the historically revisionist myth of the Constitution and the farce of "representative democracy" cannot  achieve their embarrasingly modest reformist goals (note: see the Dems' recent health care "reform" cock wedged firmly in your ass).  Even that liberal icon FDR was ready to "let them eat cake", and he would have done just that were it not for batshit crazy commies, anarchists, and other assorted loony people who had become radicalized by hunger and were finally oraganizing, prepared to rise up and eat the rich (sorry, couldn't avoid saying that, lol).

Well, I hate to post and run but I gotta go blow up a Starbucks and then get some sleep because they say the revolution is starting early  tomorrow.
-----


**When I say "anarchists", I am referring to the libertarian socialists (no, that is not an oxymoron) regardless of their various favored strategies for achieving libertarian socialism (e.g., anarchocommunism, anarcho-syndicalism, etc). I am NOT referring to the Alex Jones "anarchocaptialism" tripe, which is nothing more than greedy libertarianism-as-usual rebranded with a co-opted Black Bloc facade.


Good story (0.00 / 0)
In the 60's, for a while, I was an anarcho-syndicalist.  I understand that position, and maintain a deep respect for it.

I lived in San Francisco during the District Elections years (1975-1982), worked on rent control initiatives, unemployed organizing, among other things.  Saw the rise and corruption of Harry Britt, was at the White Night riot.  Tried to build something in what was once District 6 (the Mission) and failed, saw erstwhile radicals sucked into the Democratic Party maw.  My memories of the Democratic Party are not pleasant ones.

You seem to think my comment, "just like some radicals wait around for the general strike to happen someday," was directed at you.  It was not.  Perhaps it was your wild eyes that made you interpret it thus, but I did say "some" and you know that "some" fit the bill.  You haven't seen my eyes.

From your account, the Green Party ran a good race, didn't sound corrupt or sectarian.  You just got beat.  Perhaps the fact that San Francisco has nominally non-partisan municipal elections gave them an opening we in New Jersey don't have.

My questions would center around what efforts you and the Greens made to build an infrastructure that would survive the election.  My approach was to try to build something that would outlast the election.  Democrats understand that the most important day is the day AFTER the elections.  My compadres did not get that.  Fatal mistake.

I would not turn one negative experience into an absolute.  I doubt that I have anything to say that you haven't heard, but there have been successes.  Yeah, it's tough.  You're not saying anything I haven't heard.  We both keep keeping on.

Tactical question:  If you blow up that Starbucks tonight, how are you going to get yourself fully awake early tomorrow?

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe  


[ Parent ]
" You just got beat." ??? (0.00 / 0)
How easily you dismiss the bigger picture - the actual moral of the story isn't that they didn't "survive" the election... in fact nothing Elian said supports that theory.

The MORAL of the STORY is that Status Quo for the Rich is the UNIPARTY, and they will never, ever, by ballot or any other means, hand the power back to the PEOPLE without throwing everything they have at the movement to stop it.

Now, for the record, I didn't read your essay as dissing we wild liberals - I just see you as thinking its some math equation we can plot and execute, and see your frustration it has not been done successfully that way.

I do think Elian's point stands...


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[ Parent ]
I wasn't trying to capture "the actual moral of the story" (0.00 / 0)
Interesting that you see me somehow contradicting his story rather than building on it.

You apparently don't like "My questions would center around what efforts you and the Greens made to build an infrastructure that would survive the election."  I didn't say they didn't survive.  I don't know what they did.  That's why I used the word "questions."

Oh, and remember, Status Quo for the Rich is the UNIPARTY, and they will never, ever, by ballot or any other means, hand the power back to the PEOPLE without throwing everything they have at the movement to stop it.

Happy now?

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe  


[ Parent ]
And foithermore ... (0.00 / 0)
Elian writes:

I think the Greens are hopeless, although I think the same about any efforts to move the country to the left (even an inch to the impotent, "pragmatic" milquetoast liberal left) via a third party--wait, make that "second" party.  Here is a case study about the Greens in particular (if anyone cares)

In other words, I thought he was trying to say something about the Greens, not just the world in general.  So what was hopeless specific to the Greens, other than engaging in electoral politics in general?  From what I see, they ran a pretty good campaign but got outgunned.  But there is much more that I would have found of interest (if anyone cares).

If you want to attack my original piece, have at it.  You don't need to lean on Elian to do so.

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe  


[ Parent ]
Wow, I need more coffee (0.00 / 0)
I just woke up and thought I would jump in (& I thought moderate by seeing both sides) what looked to be something that could become heated.

I meant to add calmness not fuel, not attack.

Let me reread his comment - my sleepy take was that he thought the Greens had problems because their rigid platform wouldn't make room for coalitions.

Whew.

I'm trying to write my morning thoughts on another open WWL page, at the same time.

I think I bit off more than I could chew till the caffeine kicks in!

Listen to The Wild Wild Left on internet talk radio



[ Parent ]
Elian writes: (0.00 / 0)
Yep...hardline Trotskyists, "radical" liberals (as you called them), liberal/progressive Dems, and even gasp  those psychotic anarchists worked together to fight the draconian Newsom agenda. We rallied around shared principles that Gonzalez articulated, and not just the candidate himself who was rather charisma-challenged.

It appears to me that they ran an excellent campaign and got outgunned.

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe  


[ Parent ]
Yes. (0.00 / 0)
But with the Shadow Government being Big Money, we will always be outgunned, doncha think?

So, rather than that thought make us give up it should make us realize we have to start uniting outside the system



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[ Parent ]
Hence my question to Elian (0.00 / 0)
What was done to build infrastructure?  It's not simply a matter of win-or-lose the election.

Infrastructure to do what?  That's a good question.  Answer requires more than simply exposing the evils of capitalism.

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe  


[ Parent ]
I understand now (11.00 / 1)
I think exposing the evils of capitalism is what creates the movement needed.

We are on the same side with differing thinking patterns.

Listen to The Wild Wild Left on internet talk radio



[ Parent ]
I wasn't unhappy (10.00 / 1)
with anything... in fact I have no emotion at all when watching or participating in a decent debate.

I was just pointing out the reason they got beat had nothing to do with how "they" ran their campaign, it was the CHEATING, the money, the pressure, the media, the political giants (of the supposed left) that through their weight behind a MAYORAL race... if even a mayoral race gets that much pressure - the wtf does that say about National change?

It says it must be more radical than building a party machine that can be easily crushed.

It says it demands dismantling the Oligarchy... and that, my friend takes Revolution writ large.

Revolution writ large demands changing the People's minds enough to risk EVERYTHING.

That kind of groundswell takes opening eyes, takes slow and constant whispers of complaints, and the focus of who is to blame for thise complaints.

It takes propaganda of the truthy kind.

Which is what I do, anyway.

Listen to The Wild Wild Left on internet talk radio



[ Parent ]
Actually, I didn't think that comment was directed at me personally (12.00 / 2)
But that statement about wild-eyed radicals in conjunction with your reply to Diane about "the workers' party" gave me the (apparently inaccurate) impression that your words were tinged with a disparaging tone. Unfortunately, when one writes a thought-provoking and eloquent essay proposing a set of tactics for achieving a liberal reformist agenda and uses terms like "wild-eyed radicals" after making comments that seemed dismissive of anyone s/he deems too far to the left (e.g., remarks to Diane), such (mis)interpretations are bound to occur. I apologize if I wrongly jumped to conclusions.

You are right about one thing: we got beat. We barely lost (or perhaps not...who knows what the outcome would have been if those ballot boxes hadn't tried to committ suicide by jumping off the GG Brige...guess we'll never know) when we should have been savaged by Newsom's millions instead.  

You are going to get a much more severe beating than we did, unless you happen to have an extra few billion dollars burning a hole in your pocket and some friends in really fucking high places.  

Will write about the efforts to build the post-election infrastructure in the aftermath of the SF mayoral campaign in the not too distant future...not trying to be evasive but I have to get back to work.  I was once a FP here, but time constraints now prevent me from posting and commenting very often.   While I profoundly disagree with much of what you wrote, I would very much enjoy continuing the discussion with you.  

Though we seem to agree on almost nothing, I've nevertheless enjoyed your writing here at WWL.  I have often admired your manner of argumentation whenever I've had time to check in at WWL.  I would love to go head-to-head with you in the splitting of semantic hairs one day (and I do not mean that in a condescending way....it would be edifying and enjoyable). I understand why people get frustrated with it, but from what I have seen you are usually just striving for razor-sharp precision in the operationalization of the concepts being discussed....which leads me to believe you are either an academic or an attorney (or both). I know I sometimes drive my partner insane with my obsession (as he would cal it) for precision in the use of language in some circumstances--he was smart enough to avoid higher education, so he doesn't waste his time on such trivialities.

As for blowing up the Starbucks, I have a severe sleep disorder and I figured that the sound of bombs detonating down the street followed by the inevitable chorus of screaming sirens would be, like, a totally bitchin' alarm clock.

Peace.


[ Parent ]
Much to respond to here! (0.00 / 0)
Just off the top:

It's not that being too far left bothers me.  It's that left-wing stances are all too often accompanied by a lack of tactical acumen.

While I indeed advocate "a set of tactics for achieving a liberal reformist agenda," that liberal reformist agenda is itself -- to me -- a tactic.  A critical term to me is Critical Mass.   What appeal might lead to solid organizational growth?  What issues -- if organized for successfully (and by successfully, I don't necessarily winning the stated demands) -- do NOT put one in a position which precludes moving farther left as circumstances allow?

The demand for U.S. out now during the Vietnam war, for instance, left people high and dry, once the U.S. got out.  A more anti-imperialist approach, while having less appeal, would have left people better positioned for dealing with the post-Vietnam international scene.  This is not some scientific equation, despite the requirement for cold calculation.  Rather, I consider it high art.

Organization is the tool by which one can measure the success or failure of one's proclamations.

What one can demand depends on one's strength.

My method is riddled with contradictions.  If there were no contradictions, THAT would be a sign that I was doing something wrong.

We barely lost (or perhaps not...who knows what the outcome would have been if those ballot boxes hadn't tried to committ suicide by jumping off the GG Brige ... guess we'll never know) when we should have been savaged by Newsom's millions instead ... Will write about the efforts to build the post-election infrastructure in the aftermath of the SF mayoral campaign in the not too distant future.

I look forward to reading it.

[I] believe you are either an academic or an attorney (or both)

How dare you sir!  Flintlocks or sabers at dawn!  [Gasp!  I have committed an act of bourgeois dualism.  Flintlocks AND sabers at dawn!]  I am in fact an ex-programmer, ex-office drone at an insurance company, sliding from unemployment to retirement as I hit age 62.

In any event, we probably agree on more than you think.  But the differences are likely acute.

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe  


[ Parent ]
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