So. Fucking. Proud.

I have to read your links (8.00 / 2)

after the great production of food part of my patriarchal existence... heh.

After working all day, sniffing through the underwear drawer latest news updates, Jake and I broke down the old swingset, weeded a huge area and dragged it all up the hill to the trash in85 humidity....

So then we rewarded ourselves with a walk down to the beach and a refreshing swim.

Once more duties are out of the way, I will try and enlighten myself to her thinking....

I adore how you open our minds...

---

by: Diane Gee @ Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 23:53:56 PM UTC

Listened... tornado warnings now (0.00 / 0)

signing off... (its south of us) but surge protecting, shut down unplug.

---

by: Diane Gee @ Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 01:33:04 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I agree & disagree (12.00 / 1)

But I have a hard time sustaining rage for rage's sake.

Ok, yeah. Were there universal health care, we wouldn't have to worry about who is on whose insurance. Dead on. However, naming Medical Power of Atty is a huge thing, and if none named, who decides? Ok, family is out by her admission, family should be by choice. But say, you slide into a coma, and two different people claim to be significant others, or some stranger walks in, claims to be your lover and says "pull the plug," there has to be some societal burden of proof.

Tearing everything down doesn't make anyone safer in that way.

As far as marriage, yeah. I get it. I didn't do it until Jake was 5, for reasons I won't address here... but the original reason was I did not need the state to tell me who I was committed to. Eventually, insurance and right of property passage in case of death won out.

I doubt we can convince society worldwide to eliminate the idea of marriage no matter how archaic it is. Sure, it should be about individuals and their choices, but is that not taking away freedoms for those who WANT it?

It may be the wrong overall battle, but I don't see it as a step toward conformity, rather a step toward accepting all humans as they are.

Now I entirely agree with the doubting the sanity of anyone who wants into the Military, especially in this day and age... yeah, we should all be fighting that battle. But if some queer identifies themself as warrior, and needs/wants the structure of military life, shall I tell them they have to reidentify? No. But I would work as hard as I could to make sure their service was in Peace Time. War is an abomination.

I've known more than few people that are like Mattilda. They inspire and truth tell on many levels. But they always talk about tearing it down, and never have any ideas on how to make a workable thereafter once its torn down.

She's great, and serves a great purpose in the discussion, a needed service.... but she like any other human, is far from having all the answers.

---

by: Diane Gee @ Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 11:57:07 AM UTC

You (11.00 / 1)

articulated this much better than I was able to last night. I read the links, Elian, and put off answering until I had a good night's sleep.

We have these social constructs and as much as we may want to rebel against what we perceive to be archaic institutions, inevitably, we fall into line because it's easier.

Sometimes.

Like Diane, we didn't get married until years after the kids were born. Oh, the bullshit we went through still sends me into a rage. Like Diane and Mike, we finally formalized the relationship for legal, financial and medical reasons. It's kind of funny - Six years ago we were having a girls night out and the topic turned to relationships.. The girls remarked on the longevity of our marriage and how uncommon it is. They then asked me, "When did you know you were going to stay with Dad?"

My answer?

"Two weeks ago." LOL

I'm in a bit of an strange mood these days. Last week, our oldest announced her engagement to her long time SO. They met at summer science camp at 15. (cue the Awww here)

She has adamantly refused to marry until now. A couple of months ago while on vacation in Vancouver, she ended up in the hospital with avian flu. If they had been anywhere here in the states, (even with durable power of attorney and medical POA) they would have had a hell of a time. They own property together and there are insurance issues. Until we have universal recognition of civil rights, the only people benefiting from the current patchwork of laws are lawyers.

I don't want to try to equate what one bonded hetero couple experiences with what queer folk do as being in any way the same - I guess what I'm fumbling around with here is that I understand why (some) people want the security in all of its manifestations.

---

by: Louise @ Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 13:28:58 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I agree with much of what you and Diane had to say (9.33 / 3)

and I emphatically do not think Mattilda (or anyone for that matter) has all or even most of the answers. I know Mattilda certainly doesn't think she has all of the answers.

To be fair, I think it is important to keep in mind that she had less than 15 minutes to articulate a complex and very controversial perspective in response to a series of questions from a journalist who was less than sympathetic, to put it mildly.  But that is the nature of the corporate media beast...

I will admit to being somewhat perplexed that you both seemed to hear her say that she wants to prevent queer people from marrying. She obviously abhors the institution, but she said she understood that some queer people might need to get married for some of the very pragmatic reasons you mentioned.  I think the point she made was that a small, self-appointed gay aristocracy has gone out of its way to exclude a large number of queer people from participating in the debate. And I am not just referring to wild-eyed radicals and anarchists who want to tear things down and criticize "without offering any solutions" (or maybe they have offered solutions, but their solutions just haven't been heard...c'mon, now, I seem to recall several FP's get criticized for criticizing Obama's health care reform plan on the grounds that they supposedly "had no constructive ideas for solving the problem and at least his O'ness was trying to take a step in the right direction"...no pun intended....which was bs because many people in fact offered a lot of potential solutions that the Obamaniac simply didn't want to hear).  Out here in the flyover states, a lot of LGBTQ people laugh at the idea of fighting for marriage equality after a 14 hour shift at Target where they pretended to be straight to avoid getting the shit kicked out of them because they cannot afford to go to the hospital.  And most of these folks are not exactly on the left end of the political spectrum.

We all have certain things that we'd like to tear down because they are beyond redemption.  Organized religion, Zionism, Sara Palin, capitalism,   greedy oil companies, private "defense" contractors, name your poison.  Like cancer, you first have to excise it or poison it and destroy it before you can be expected to run a marathon. That doesn't mean you aren't planning every detail of your marathon over and over again in your head while you suffer through chemo.  

Mattilda has IMO some moving and pragmatic solutions to offer, some of which are beyond my ability to understand.  Clearly, I wouldn't expect most people to be familiar with the work of an obscure author who I only know about through sheer chance. So based on what you've seen, I totally understand why you might arrive at certain conclusions I would consider inaccurate.  I would like, however, to think that my fellow leftists wouldn't be so quick to use the Republican tactic of minimizing the ideas of someone on the "angry left" by accusing them of being critical without having any solutions.

unless of course you are talking about me, in which case you'd be right...arrgh...damn Internet connection....will try to finish this post in a bit  

---

by: Elián Maricón @ Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 18:45:47 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Oops, and in paragraph 2 I shouldn't have said (0.00 / 0)

Both.

---

by: Elián Maricón @ Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 18:47:40 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

well. (10.50 / 2)

shit. I wasn't trying to minimize you or Matilda. I guess I formed my reply based on practicalities. There's a boatload I don't know about LGBTQ issues and I'm in a constant state of discovery.

Why the hell can't we fuck who we want to and formally declare anyone as a bonded partner?  

---

by: Louise @ Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 20:10:21 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I also am guilty of (10.67 / 3)

over simplifying in the short time before work.

I guess when she kept making a point of saying the movement has been co-opted by elites who were pushing for marriage, and people like her who think it reinforces an archaic and patriarchal system are never heard.

I dunno, E... I am not dismissing her as the angry Left, I am a card carrying member of the angry left. But I also know that most bonding/breeding agreements are a result of a survival instinct.

My ideal society is the one that appalled Michener and Hemingway when they ran across it - the South Pacific before white people infected them. Love was not proprietary; it was shared freely and unjealously. People did sometimes bond in pairs, but their offspring were as likely to live in any hut at any time as with them. But to spend some pleasure time with another was seen as a good thing. No one went hungry, everything was shared, and everything done in accordance with giving back to Nature. There was no taboos of bi/homo/trans or any other form of being, in fact it was considered so common as to go unnoticed except by outsiders. Thats ideal. They were innocent as children, shameless and joyful.

I do see as much animosity, or more between the glbt community as in any group around. Trans are pissed at cis. (remember that one chick on twitter? oy) Gay/lesbians jam bi people as "greedy" or not truly one of them. I hate to see it be pro-marriage against anti-institution either. (this is NOT to say that any other identifying group also is FULL of division between themselves, look at any lefty blog for proof, but she is the topic here)  

I think she is saying that HUMAN rights should come before single-issues. But the more I read her, the more I felt the most important thing she owns, to her is the rage. Its not about solutions, I just find it impractical to put so much energy into being angry that within this system the best way to at least get rights to certain things is to be married. I used to get way more money back from the feds single; I had great credit, Mikes always sucked (which of course means now married, mine does too) But when it meant a couple more grand a year back, when Bush made marriage more profitable, we caved.

But I would say that most thinking humans, most LIBERAL beings "realize they aren't utterly insane for not feeling at home in the racist, classist, hyper-patriarchal capitalist mindfuck known as" ANY COMMUNITY.

Whether it be neo-con gays who love the military, blacks who vote Bush, or undereducated middle-aged white fat polish chicks who campaign for pro-lifers....

There's always people in our identifying groups who piss thinkers like us the fuck off.

But the real enemy?

Its the class war.... the ones who put restrictions on all of us....

Your hopelessly clueless friend,

Diane

---

by: Diane Gee @ Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 20:16:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

D and Louise (10.00 / 3)

D- if there is one thing you are NOT, it is hopelessly clueless. Quite the contrary.  You reveal the cluelessness (is that even a word) that characterizes most of the human inhabitants of the rest of the world, including yours truly.

I also want to apologize for not being able to finish the post thanks to an unstable internet connection that threatened to erase everything I'd just written.

I cringe when I read the last couple of sentences.  Since I didn't finish my thought, it sounded like I was ending with a particularly bitchy, diva-like, mean-spirited personal attack. I had intended to tie it up by using irony to point out my own tendency to do the exact same thing sometimes, but I had to settle for an awkward and inadequately abrupt ending.

I hope you both know how much I respect your thoughts and opinions, and I fucking hate that I ended that post on a note that suggested the contrary.  That was not my intent. In fact, this site is one of the few places where I can find people who may disagree with me on a particular issue and who also have the ability to make me rethink and sometimes even change my mind (no, for real..it has actually happened).  

There are a couple of reasons for this: (1) I have lurked around here long enough to realize that the majority of the people who post here sincerely long for social justice and that even their most vitriolic tirades against injustice--some of the most intelligent rantage I have encountered--spring forth from a place of earth-shattering love for their fellow humans and non humans. This is an unfortunately all-too-rare quality in humans, but it overflows here. (2) This will probably play into the hands of the Republican "leftists-as-elitists" meme, but I don't give a fuck. If valuing intelligence and education (and by "education" I am not referring to a piece of paper any masochist could earn...I am talking about education that comes from life experience, innate curiosity, an insatiable intellect, and an unquenchable thirst for the truth--you know, a REAL education) is "elitist", then I guess I suck for admiring all of you pinko commie hippie elitists who refuse to stop reading all them dang books. I would wager that the average IQ of the people who participate in the ongoing conversation taking place at WWL is at least double that of the average person.  Again, I see that as a good thing. I know, I am such an elitist snob.

But I would say that most thinking humans, most LIBERAL beings "realize they aren't utterly insane for not feeling at home in the racist, classist, hyper-patriarchal capitalist mindfuck known as" ANY COMMUNITY.

True, but it is a bit more complicated than it sounds as far as the queer and transgender community is concerned. I can only speak from my experience, but living with that particular "silent legacy" of shame from childhood without even having a name for the source of that shame takes its toll.  But the worst part is the utter isolation a queer kid feels...Way back in my day, before the internets, I actually thought I was the ONLY person with that particular "problem".  By the time I eventually found my way to the gay community, I was almost completely dead inside. It was so liberating to finally be around openly LGBTQ people for the first time in my entire life.

That sense of liberation was short-lived.  It was incredibly hard to accept the fact that for the most part, the "community" I had desperately longed for was not just a microcosm of the larger culture....it exemplified the worst aspects of that culture and reveled in its acceleration of the rot.  But it was the only community I knew of where people didn't want to see me dead for the crime of being queer (in gay circles, they wanted to see me executed for my utter lack of fashion sense and the fact that I could be spotted reading now and then...oh, and the spic thing didn't exactly make me Homecoming Queen material in their eyes). It felt sacrilegious to criticize what I was led to believe was the only alternative to suicide or a life of permanent exile in denial. Also, no one else seemed to see anything wrong with the rampant racism, misogyny, classism, transphobia and body fascism that characterizes the "gay community". So I decided that there must be something wrong with me since I couldn't "fit in" to what I thought at the time was the only community that would have me.  Yet again, the familiar isolation settled in and began suffocating me to death, which at 17 I was ready to embrace. It is very difficult to come to terms with the reality of what passes for gay culture.  It is hard not to feel insane when you think you are the only one who somehow doesn't get it. Look around and behold the happy, liberated gay and lesbian bigots! They are happy with the way the "gay community" operates, so what's your fucking problem?

Hearing Mattilda say out loud much of what I had been feeling for so long was incredibly cathartic and healing.  I also know I am not the only person she has had that impact on. And she forced me to reconsider so many assumptions I didn't even know I had. She and the other Gay Shame folks (and let's not forget that awesome cadre of transgender Puerto Rican anarchist squatters) challenged me to expand my view of what was possible. They challenged me for valuing some of the things I valued.  I didn't always enjoy it. We were on an incessant search for the contradictions within us. It was a fiercely critical appraisal of our individual hypocrisies, large and small. It was a time for learning how to abandon those we could abandon while accepting that we would never be able to rid ourselves of them entirely.  It was an experiment in learning to be brutally honest about one's ideals and how well one lives out those ideals in xir own life. I discovered how I failed daily to live my life in accordance with my convictions.  And I still do.  But the most important thing I learned from that time in my life was that a life of idealism is so...asymptotic.  Yet it is the only life worth living. That's my take on it anyway.

Rather than continue my pitiful efforts to speak for Mattilda, I found the intro she wrote to an anthology she edited entitled, Nobody Passes: Rejecting the Rules of Gender and Conformity.  As I think you will see, she certainly advocates tearing things down...but there is so much more to it than destruction for destruction's sake.  The last two paragraphs are especially indicative of the type of person she is.  I think it is a remarkably searing synopsis of who she wants to be and who she is. She certainly provides a rather harsh critique of radical queer politics, including her own, and I think she does an excellent job of exposing the myriad contradictions within her own life and the contradictions that reside in us all if we are ruthlessly honest with ourselves.  Well, perhaps I shouldn't presume to speak for the rest of the world...so pretend I wrote that last sentence using "I" statements. lol

Here is the intro she wrote for the anthology. Yes, some of it is exactly what you would expect from a radical queer anarchist.  Much of it is not. I suppose I have come to agree with Diane: "each life has its place", and so does every sincere leftist.  The radicals and anarchists are essential, and we need them to tear down the irreparably depraved institutions that imprison us all. We need them to inspire others to join them in that effort. Otherwise we will spend our lives on the voting Merry Go Round, wondering when things are going to finally fucking change. We willalso need the visionary anti-authoritarian pacifist leftists for the subsequent rebuilding of a saner and more loving world out of the ashes of all that needs to be destroyed. I am not sure where I fit into the equation.  Is there a word to describe someone who sees no need to start a revolution (except for kicks and the chance to physically assault Baptists) because they believe the entropy of greed will soon be its own undoing?  "Nihilistic"?  "Lazy?"  I am both of those things!

Hope some of you will take a couple of minutes to read this fascinating intro by Mattilda. Even if you disagree with every word, I assure you it will make for an interesting read:  

The embed seems to have worked  but here is the link just in case.

Love to you all.

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by: Elián Maricón @ Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 07:27:16 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

E - oh, my... (6.00 / 1)

you are much too hard on yourself. I didn't see your comment as remotely bitchy or attacking. I thought you were trying to explain how it felt from your own perspective... and help us see differently.

Now, you have created, in mere seconds, combined with your last wonderful comment cut short by internet gremlins created a whole theory on disillusionment that I have to use as my morning thread.

And you made me look up "asymptotic" at 6 am before the coffee kicked in. Which was a math thingy with lots of funny symbols and infinity signs that curdled my underslept, overworked brain.I was up until almost midnight working show notes, which are still not finished. I think you meant sweeping u-turns, and it was a gorgeous way to say it. I think the symbology of never meeting either axis, never becoming one with the prevailing opinion before or after is just profound.... in some ways you still don't feel like you fit.

Ok... off to lower the Bar. Heh. You'll get that after you read the essay.

---

by: Diane Gee @ Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 10:48:08 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

It's that 'rule with an iron hand, . . . (0.00 / 0)

desperately embrace "we like NASCAR too" (for example) cultural norms, demonize & ostracize dissent or even an open mind' approach.

Gay leadership acting just like every other facet of 'leadership' in our country (and in pwoggie bloglandia). I don't know, if that's what being gay is going to be established as, courtesy of anti-democratic means and mainstream power, it may shrink what you have to be proud of significantly. ("Significant shrinkage, Jerry!" (bonus Seinfeld reference))

I think I hear what you're saying, but hell, I could be totally off-base.

Hey, the Blackhawks' Stanley Cup was displayed at Chicago's Gay Pride parade yesterday, people loved it! Whoopee!

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by: fairleft @ Mon Jun 28, 2010 at 18:33:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not to derail (10.50 / 2)

the conversation, but I went searching and stumbled upon this conversation. (pardon me while I expand my understanding -)

We're fighting to keep society and the law from dictating what is acceptable in our lives and for the right to be ourselves, whatever form that may take.

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by: Louise @ Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 21:11:48 PM UTC

Intresting... (10.00 / 1)

You've probably heard the cliché that "there is no such thing as the 'gay community'".  In many ways, it is very true.

Because we share a common marginalized identity, we think that all we have to do is join forces and fight the good fight.  Sounds pretty easy, no?

Turns out that a fag tebagger (pun intended) is no less odious than a hetero teabagger. Or that there are queer/trans Mariah Carrey devotees and then there are those of us who like actual music.  Some of us are white, some black, some brown, some a mix of every possibility. And some of us wear pointy white hats.  Three words: Log Cabin Republicans. Three more words: genderqueer vegan anarchists.

Oil, meet water.

The fact that the only thing you have in common with each other is that you are not straight doesn't take long to sink in.  And that is little incentive to get excited about joining forces with people you otherwise wouldn't piss on if they were on fire.

---

by: Elián Maricón @ Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 07:46:12 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Eh, pardon me for being too much of a boy about this, (12.00 / 2)

but I am just in it to crush the homophobes and get their boot off our throats.

To me this issue is about control.  Control of our futures, control of our lives.  None of it is about prescribing things to people.  Saying, ergo, I want all adult people of sound mind to be able to marry the adult of their choice is not about assimilation into the straight community, whatever that is, it's about striking down one means of subjugation and control the broader society uses.

It seems to me that removing specific legal impediments and the associated attached stigma is a matter of war.  No more, no less -- it's a war.  Now, within that, the ability or perhaps the cultural ideal of seeing each of us as individually self actualized people within a diverse community may be a good thing, but it's not the basis on which we come under attack from the homophobes.

Whether it was fighting for marriage, or ending DADT, or immigration reform, whatever we were fighting for, the homophobes would just move on to the new battlefield.  But they need to be crushed, that is, be made to see, wholly and completely, that their ideas for a society based on their thought process will never happen in our country.

The weirdo also known as AndyS In Colorado

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by: RoaringMouse @ Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 00:28:11 AM UTC

Oh! no, no, no (11.00 / 2)

You're not being a boy at all...(I'm assuming you mean someone lacking in a degree of maturity or naive - whatever..)

I think you've nailed it.

It is about control and conformity and as Mike Huckabee said this week, "The ick factor".

Small minds breeding constrained thoughts...

...and I agree with you when you say this is a war - an ideological war that needs to be crushed as ruthlessly as any other of our sad, misguided, fucked up prejudices.

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by: Louise @ Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 01:28:52 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Oh, no, it was more about seeing things from too (10.00 / 2)

male of a perspective.

To paraphrase a favorite movie

The Christian Right is out there.
They can't be bargained with,
they can't be reasoned with,
They don't know pity or remorse or fear
And they absolutely will not stop -- ever
Until we are dead

(sorry it has Ahnold in it, LOL)

I know a lot about these people.  I've been around them.  I grew up in a household with a quasi-fundamentalist stepdad.

They are dangerous.  And part of their dangerousness is the degree to which they've infiltrated institutions and manage to win "centrists" over to their points of view.  The mainstream culture laughs at them too much.

But, in other parts of the world, they are seeing my LGBT brothers imprisoned and killed.  Trifling with them and mocking them may be fun, but they are too often underestimated.

We have to deal with them.  At least to the extent of getting them to understand for themselves they live within a society that doesn't all want them and their point of view, and that they are just one element of a society, and have neither the ability to control it, nor would it be wise to try.  And that takes backlash, of a kind.

The weirdo also known as AndyS In Colorado

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by: RoaringMouse @ Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 02:11:49 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Erp .. brothers [and sisters] (6.00 / 1)

The weirdo also known as AndyS In Colorado

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by: RoaringMouse @ Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 02:32:08 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I grew up with them as well (11.50 / 2)

and agree that they need to be crushed.  Then burned.  And then their ashes should be scattered on the moon just in case they manage to come back from the dead like they plan to one day. Those fuckers are horribly dangerous, and they make me realllllly wish the rapture would hurry the fuck up and happen already.  

To me this issue is about control.  Control of our futures, control of our lives.  None of it is about prescribing things to people...it's about striking down one means of subjugation and control the broader society uses.

I like that, and I would merely add that there are some queer and transgender people who see the institution of marriage as another "means of subjugation and control the broader society uses".

I get that you may not agree with that statement, but is it so inconceivable that some queer and transgender people might see it that way?  

---

by: Elián Maricón @ Sat Jun 26, 2010 at 01:52:53 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

No, it's not, but, ok, let me set the ground here. (0.00 / 0)

I am not the kind of gay man who has spent much time in the physical gay community.

Like you, I felt unwelcome there, but not because of my "differentness" but rather because of my "ordinariness".

I am not "hot".  I am not "attractive".  And I am well used to being treated like shit by gay men who think their shit doesn't stink.

Setting all that aside, I had to become accustomed to being treated like dirt by my own community.  This is a different, apparently, perspective from yours  -- even though ultimately arriving at the same place.  I'm on the other end.  And in the meantime, I had to learn, and have learned, to try to understand and be respectful of all kinds of diversity, while not, apparently, being granted any of my own.

You know what?  I disagree with you.  I disagree with the sentiment of not wanting to form solidarity with other gay people because, other than the fact they are gay, you wouldn't want to "piss on them if their hair was on fire" to paraphrase.  Probably, were you and I to have first met outside this little sandbox, we might feel that way, totally without justification, about each other.

You said Matilda's ideas were difficult to articulate.  But, I'm sorry, this is not good enough.

Because I'm not trying to oppress you by forcing you to get married.  I am wanting you to join with me in fighting the oppression of the broader community. I'm wanting you to understand solidarity, yes, solely on the basis of you being a gay man, and I being one, too.

So, I'm sorry.  In the absence of an articulable philosophy, this alienation and artificial division does not seem grown up to me.

Give me something worth fighting for or about, because, the marriage fight, the DADT fight, and the other fights, are a METHOD, not an oppression against YOU.  Nor against men, or women, or people who want to see gender roles as fluid, (which, by the way, I totally respect, having been TAUGHT TO).

At the very least, these are battles that could, and should be, deferred, and if they cannot be, then one must question the maturity of the gay community at all, or its readiness for this fight.

You are my brother.  If you want progress for us in this lifetime, then, whatever our differences, you have to see me as your brother, too.

You have to be.  Because there is no other way.  And I'm not trying to stop you from living a particular lifestyle, only to not only provide you that option, but to deprive the bigots and the homophobes THE MEANS by which to exercise their bigotry.  


The weirdo also known as AndyS In Colorado

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by: RoaringMouse @ Sun Jun 27, 2010 at 07:51:57 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

(((Andy))) (11.50 / 2)

Good to see you here. You are one of the people I have interacted with at DD that I miss dearly.

You're such a booooooooooy! LOL. No worries, not only are boys my favorite creatures at times, but some of my best friends are boys who suck dick almost as good as me.

(yes, I'm trying to pull your chain  :-)

But I agree with your stance, or maybe understand it better than hers. I mean, let me try and put it this way.

No matter how fucking stupid I think any law is; there is NO HUMAN BEING it should not be applied equally to.

If you are a homophobe, its easy, don't do your own sex. If you are a religious nut, don't have an abortion.

BUT DO NOT LEGISLATE RESTRICTIVE SHIT ON THE REST OF THE POPULATION, WHILE ALLOWING YOURSELF SOME KIND OF DIFFERENT/BETTER DEAL.

I agree haters, exceptionalists, need to be eradicated - they do try and put boots on necks.

Me? I want all humans to be able to be, I mean BE, exactly who they are, love who they want, identify as they want, and be accepted as equal to everyone....

Not that any human is ever accepting of anyone else, en masse.

There should be no stigma, no fear, no ik factor.

Haters are evil.

Love conquers all.

Again, good to see you and glad you weighed in.

Diane

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by: Diane Gee @ Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 01:44:27 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

How could I not come over? Two of my most favorite are only here! (11.00 / 1)

I need my Rusty fix every day.  And my Diane fix :)

Yes, I totally agree.  If they want to live like it's the nineteenth century .. and if they choose that life, even if for women and gay people I think it's degrading and about straight male privilege -- they can live that way, if they want.

But I just think they have to understand in no uncertain terms, they can't dictate to the rest of society how we should live.

And, about the dick thing -- I wish.  That's all I'll say about that.  Heh.  

Nice to see you though!

The weirdo also known as AndyS In Colorado

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by: RoaringMouse @ Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 02:14:34 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Could be a very powerful (11.33 / 3)

"reverse psychology" presentation.  

Instead of arguing "please, can we all get married?", and having that voted down, you come out with a position that says "You know, you 'Jesus flaunting war mongering decline- of- empire dead- enders' have so debased what could have been the noble institution of marriage, that we in the gay community don't really want to have anything to do with marriage.  How foolish of us to have wasted our time seeking approval to get married.".

Who knows.  Make fun of the institution of marriage as practiced by war mongering heteros, make fun of their failing empire, make fun of the huge divorce rate, call all these things failures, and there might be conservative legislatures all over the country demanding that gays get married.

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by: grunmann @ Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 19:46:11 PM UTC

tru dat :) n/t (10.00 / 1)

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by: Diane Gee @ Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 19:47:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

are you serious??? (0.00 / 0)

You honestly think that's her agenda?

For real?

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by: Elián Maricón @ Sat Jun 26, 2010 at 01:40:51 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

no, I thought it was funny (0.00 / 0)

and never put it past the republicans to force people to do anything they resist... sorry, just me ire & sarcasm coming out....

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by: Diane Gee @ Sat Jun 26, 2010 at 02:02:55 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Damn! You uncovered the whole scheme! Now it is RUINED!!!! Mattilda is an HRC operative & you Valerie Plamed her! (8.67 / 3)

I suppose it doesn't make any difference that 99% of Mattilda's criticism is directed at warmongering fags and dykes and their failing empire (so to speak). But again, I guess I see how you might misinterpret her views based on that short clip I posted.

Having said that...(and this is a general comment not directed at anyone in particular)...

actually I decided to turn the rest of this reply into a post of its own...

I am sure the anticipation is killing you all, lol!

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by: Elián Maricón @ Sat Jun 26, 2010 at 01:39:09 AM UTC

[ Parent ]