Here's a chiller

Tip of the day (9.00 / 5)

Don't piss into the wind

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe  

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by: jeffroby @ Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 17:55:04 PM UTC

They confiscated every recording device (10.00 / 4)

all evidence.. of course they want total control of what gets out so they can spin it towards their interests.

It is the survivors that will make all the difference, and WE their voices.

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by: Diane Gee @ Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 18:07:30 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Interesting - (9.75 / 4)

I read somewhere earlier about folks saying the Commandos were throwing dead and wounded people overboard, but I didn't pay much attention because I thought certainly the Israelis were smart enough to know, considering how many reporters and left-alive 'activists' there were to, uh, witness the crime, they couldn't possibly be so stupid.

But we are dealing with crazy people, so there you go. (Crazy as in the sense of 'true believers.')

But if this is true, OMG...another nail in the coffin.

g.

 

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by: gottlieb @ Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 18:14:29 PM UTC

You need to understand that the Israelis want to be seen as crazy, violent and... (10.00 / 1)

...unpredictable thus inspiring fear. This is their deliberate policy and, furthermore, they will probably get away with it. We need to look into deep politics to understand why and how they get away with stuff like that and what it means to the rest of us and the future of civil society.

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by: banger @ Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 21:51:37 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Like indefinite detention, torture & no miranda? (10.00 / 1)

Yeah, it spreads....

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by: Diane Gee @ Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 21:54:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What do you mean by "get away with it"? (6.00 / 1)

If you mean, will the Likud remain in power, yeah, they will.  But has Israel's position in the world been seriously damaged?  It's been very damaged.

We are too "American."  The government presents some kind of a monolith (less so than usual), and we are intimidated.  The MSM parrots the IDF line (less so than usual), and we despair that the American masses will remain duped.  But that is when we see it as Americans.

European nations that used to fall into lockstep are condemning Israel, and "condemn" has a particular diplomatic meaning.  Israel ally NATO is threatening to cut off ALL relations.  NATO is caught between renegade Israel and a NATO member.  Iran's hand is strengthened.  15,000 demonstrate in Alexandria, Egypt, and the Egyptians are forced -- yes, forced -- to open the border for a while.  3,500 march in Greece, which is a very world-sensitive place right now.

The boycott Israel movement will accelerate, like the one that brought down South African apartheid.  I could go on but my fingers are getting tired.

Internationalism isn't just some cheap Leninist PC rhetoric.  It's quite real.  I don't mean to paint everything rosy, but to remain cynical in the face of world events is a very AMERICAN privilege.  At the least, it is bad science.  At worst, it renders you powerless.

The task, then, includes some attempt to measure our gains, and work out what new moves become possible as a result.

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe  

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by: jeffroby @ Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 22:38:11 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I hope you are right... (0.00 / 0)

... but it will be efforts in civil society, i.e., boycotts etc that will count. Dont' count on the Europeans to do anything their governments are weak, spineless and corrupt and will never part company with the U.S. other than rhetorically. It is part of the Empire and has no independence at all. Turkey is a bit of a wild card but I believe their sense of upset won't go far--they're elites are too locked into the Imperial order and their intel services and military have enormous power and they are involved in the drug trade, and covert ops with U.S. and Israel, or so it seems--I could be wrong but that's the implication of Sibel Edmonds insights which I believe are probably right.

Governments in the middle east gestulate a lot but support Israel on the sly because they in the pay of the Saudis and Americans though I'm over simplifying a very complex situation where governments are filled with double, triple and ad infinitum agents who play all sides and no sides. In other words, most governments are just criminals with nice manners with some decent people at mid-level, to be sure.

I don't see a world-wide movement to condemn Israel. Remember something: U.S. and Israeli agents are free to go into any country anytime to assassinate anyone. They also, in my view, control many palace guards. Only mass movements working year in year out can make any difference.

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by: banger @ Sat Jun 05, 2010 at 00:39:43 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'm aware of the above ... (6.00 / 1)

Now if I were projecting that NATO governments would launch proletarian revolution, I would be over-reaching.  But the Europeans just DID do something.  The Turks just did something.  It changes the balance of forces relative to Iran, relative to Egypt.  The Chinese and Russians and Brazilians and Indians are a different matter altogether.

Think of watching arm-wrestling (is there a secret fetish here?).  Nobody is slamming anybody's arm to the table.  But look at who's starting to sweat.  Maybe tremble a little.

The essence of tactics is attention to nuance.  We've gotten out of the habit.  With the fall of the Soviet Union leaving the U.S. the sole superpower, it was hard for anyone to go up against it.  Now a conglomeration of emerging powers plus Russia and China are forming a counterweight, a collective superpower, you might say.

In this case, smaller forces can impact because no one is taking on an unopposed U.S.  Or with the arm-wrestlers, if the two are evenly matched, the added weight of a 97-pound weakling can tilt the balance.

700 activists have shaken the world.

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe  

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by: jeffroby @ Sat Jun 05, 2010 at 01:10:22 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Maybe--I hope so.. (0.00 / 0)

Yes, Russia and China are kind of counter-weights. I'm wondering what you think the Israeli leaderships game is then. Have they miscalculated? Maybe they have -- they certainly did in Lebanon.

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by: banger @ Sat Jun 05, 2010 at 02:58:52 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Parchesi? (0.00 / 0)

They've miscalculated to the extent they've calculated at all.  I think they're driven by the Palestine internal dynamics.  The settlers on the whole are an overtly fascist force, and are a major bloc within the IDF.

That raises the question of to what extent the flotilla incident was high-level policy driven, and to what extent it was crazed IDF members getting a chance to shoot some terrorists.

Being an untenable minority in the region, and VERY small as countries go, they are indeed vulnerable -- that's no lie -- and may think that hysteria is their best play in an otherwise untenable situation.

I see you commented on my Fascism essay.  Remember the discussion of Hitler's options?  Integrate into, in that case, an American world order, or conquest.  I think Israel faces similar dynamics, with it being a Muslim "world order" it would have to become a peaceful part of.  I think the U.S. might be ambivalent about these choices, just as it is ambivalent around its general Middle Eastern policy.

I'll have to ask Netanyahu for a clearer answer.  :>)

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe  

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by: jeffroby @ Sat Jun 05, 2010 at 04:22:59 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

They sang in prison (10.50 / 2)

... per Gaza Flotilla Survivors:

The 10-hour wait on the Ben Gurion tarmac and then the late-night flight to Istanbul were joyous.

Three Turkish aircraft were parked adjacent to Terminal 1 and, as the Israeli authorities processed passengers at snail's pace, each arrival was welcomed onto the aircraft with clapping, cheering, crying. There was a festive, party mood as friends were reunited. There were pensive tears for those waiting for husbands, siblings, friends who had not been seen for days.

... and we would honor them by singing too.

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe  

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by: jeffroby @ Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 22:55:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Warning! (0.00 / 0)

We shouldn't jump the gun.  In situations like this, it is easy to lose track of people, especially since the prisoners weren't released en masse, and some are still held.  This COULD be a false lead.

On the other hand, by all accounts, some (see my measured language) of the Israeli commandos were acting in a killing frenzy, and there is no reason to assume that they wouldn't dare do something that horrendous.

I ran into the story the first time in passing, found links to the above today by Googling "flotilla dead overboard."  The coverage of the survivors isn't great, even in the foreign media.

We may recall, like 10 years ago, the discussions about the effect of the blogosphere.  One theme that came up was that by doing investigative reporting on stories the MSM was ignoring, they forced coverage of stories that wouldn't have been covered.

Since then, the blogosphere has shifted emphasis from investigation to moral outrage, the effect -- I believe -- of the left having been bludgeoned by year after year of Bush and then Obama.  But there is a need for some very basis investigative journalism here.

And how to break it into the MSM?  Greenwald has been magnificent.  The wall is not solid.  We "nobodies" can feed them and the stories then can break.

foreign press -> left blogosphere -> major bloggers -> MSM

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe  

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by: jeffroby @ Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 19:20:49 PM UTC

good point. (6.00 / 1)

But holy hell, I make a living off my moral outrage.

Correction, I operate at a total budget deficit out of my own pocket to spew my moral outrage!

Hahahahahaa!

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by: Diane Gee @ Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 19:31:15 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I hate politics! (0.00 / 0)

... and I have hobbies.  In the meantime, we are selling our house.  I wish the flotilla folks and the Israelis could have arranged to have all this happen in 10 days, much more convenient.

For now, let me link to this.

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe  

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by: jeffroby @ Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 19:37:05 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I commented on it back then (10.00 / 1)

remember?

:)

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by: Diane Gee @ Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 19:47:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I remember now (10.00 / 1)

It seems like years ago, one of my first posts.  Thanks.

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings." -- Marlowe  

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by: jeffroby @ Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 20:31:47 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

how long will it be before (10.00 / 1)

carrying a concealed weapon is not a jailable offense and carrying a concealed camera is?

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by: zedaker @ Sat Jun 05, 2010 at 02:31:12 AM UTC