Remember, Remember, the 5th of November....

Off to Detroit! n/t (0.00 / 0)

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by: Diane Gee @ Sat Nov 05, 2011 at 15:18:20 PM UTC

the mask (0.00 / 0)

Good for you!  I wear mine ... and today to go met Rick Santorum down in Lake Worth.  You know, by Ms. Berry's account, American Minute Men were terrorists... and I know this readership needs no reminder that one fellow's terrorists is another's freedom fighter.  My Chickasaw GrandFather would tell me his Ancestors and he have been fighting off terrorists since the 1500's ... all arriving by ship.  

The Gunpowder Revolt!  Remember Remember!  The injustice of imperialism = Corporate Earth.  Rebuke it peacefully.  Pacifism has a longevity to it too.  

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by: Gwendolyn @ Sat Nov 05, 2011 at 16:11:36 PM UTC

actually the conversation (0.00 / 0)

was much more nuanced than that.

She had a valid point of view and its good to discuss these things.

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by: Diane Gee @ Sat Nov 05, 2011 at 16:33:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Diane, timely post (17.00 / 1)

I'm torn in several directions here. As you point out, the public can be swayed in a positive manner by police brutality and negatively if the fight back. If we had actual journalists (Amy Goodman or Bruce Dixon) delivering the news on actual media (Democracy Now, Al-Jazeera)rather than the toxic landscape of the MSM this would not be an issue.They would report the news honestly, with an informed public the beneficiary. But the talking whores of CNN/FOX/MSNBC attack Occupy at every opportunity, so in a sense the whores will report violence regardless of what occurs.

Personally I don't want to be beaten, shot or gassed so I don't have the right to ask it of anyone else - I applaud their courage but only have their back in a figurative sense. I would use violence to protect my family, as we all would. O if I was at the point where I just didn't give a fuck. It may come to that.

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by: Al Osorio @ Sun Nov 06, 2011 at 01:36:57 AM UTC

regarding Ghandi... (17.00 / 2)

Ghandi's pacifism only worked because the British middle class had the meme of their Moral superiority and uprightness so thoroughly programmed into their psyche that they could not countenance the barbarism that was part and parcel of their colonialism and exploitation. They believed in their Humaneness, and it offended them to find out otherwise.

This tactic would not have worked against the Japanese or Nazi-era Germans who believed in their superiority by birthright and Divine edict. As far as they were concerned, they were a different and superior species then the people they conquered and occupied, and had no moral compunction about their treatment of 'animals'. This attitude has been a common meme of imperial societies since the Romans, if not before...

The rationalizations and self-justifications of Empire are still evident from the US and Canadian treatment of First Nations peoples, to the Israeli attitudes towards the Palestinians, or the US attitudes towards Mexican and other Hispanic economic refugees in the US to find work to survive; largely due to US colonialism in the Southern Hemisphere displacing them by destroying their self-sufficiency and independence.

The same mechanism of affronted self-image (of the Victorian-era British middle-class decency, gentility, and civility) was in play during the 60's when photographs of Napalmed Vietnamese, or street assassinations by US or ARVN troops were given press coverage in the US. Sadly,the same outrage and moral indignation does not seem to apply today.

As far as Guy Fawkes being equated to Timothy McVeigh, I think a better comparison would be to Geronimo. The Catholics in Great Britain were oppressed, persecuted, disenfranchised, and thoroughly marginalized by a system that was embodied by the Monarchy and the Peerage of Parliament.

Elizabethan Recusants and the Recusancy Laws
The Elizabethan Recusancy Laws directly effected all English Catholics. Elizabeth succeeded her Catholic sister Mary I on November 17 1558 and immediately re-established the Protestant Anglican Church. The Elizabethan Recusancy Laws were established due to the 1559 Act of Uniformity of Common Prayer and Administration of the Sacrament in which attendance at church became compulsory and non-attendance was punishable by fine or imprisonment. The Elizabethan religious settlement was passed by Parliament on 29 April 1559and the Elizabethan Prayer Book was first used June 24, 1559...

Punishments of Elizabethan Recusants
The strict Recusancy Laws imposed by the 1559 Act of Uniformity resulted in various punishments for Catholic recusants. Additional Justices of the Peace were appointed in all areas of England who produced Recusancy lists which supplied the government details of Catholic recusants.

People who held, or attended private masses, were to be punished by imprisonment

Initially recusants were fined twelve shillings for non attendance of church

The harsher Recusancy laws increased the fine to a massive twenty pounds a month

Non payment of fines resulted in imprisonment

http://www.elizabethan-era.org...

It all comes down to whether you believe in the 'Divine Right of Kings' or the rule of conscience (or Law),as opposed to "laws", which are enacted for the perpetuation of some privileged class.

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by: wyamarus @ Sun Nov 06, 2011 at 13:09:55 PM UTC

and not all the British see Fawkes as a villain... (0.00 / 0)

The Monarchy and the embedded system of privilege and nepotism it embodies is deeply resented in working class England (and it goes without saying in Scotland, Wales, and occupied Ireland...)

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by: wyamarus @ Sun Nov 06, 2011 at 13:16:40 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yet, weren't the Catholics (0.00 / 0)

just as oppressive to the Protestants when they were in Power?

I've heard as much.

Fucking religion seems to ruin everything.

Thanks for this comment, its just chock full of informative goodness.

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by: Diane Gee @ Sun Nov 06, 2011 at 13:24:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]